Found this interesting piece HERE.
The New and Improved Seeker-Sensitive Recipe for Making Disciples
Heaping Portions of Culturally Appealing Entertainment
Generous Scoops of Songs That Have Little or No Doctrinal Content
Buckets of Sermons That Teach Practical Self-Help Lessons and Pop-Psych Mixed With a Sprinkling of Out-of-Context Bible Verses
The Yeast From a Small Group Study Lead by Un-Trained Lay-People Who Pool Their Biblical Ignorance by Asking the Question, “What Does This Verse Mean to You?”
The Biblical Recipe for Making Disciples - Acts 2:42
A Tenacious Devotion to the Teaching of the Apostles (God’s Word Proclaimed in Song and Sermon) Under A Trained Pastor - 2 Tim 4:1-2, 2 Tim 2:2
Fellowship
Breaking of Bread (Lord's Supper)
Prayers
Which recipe is your church cooking with?
Our church is famous for using the 1950's model to discipling. These folks are pretty sure Billy Graham is still in tip-top shape and holding crusades everywhere.
ReplyDeleteBill Gaither is in his prime and we must use all of his material for "worship."
The NKJV is way too radical for us! And the NIV and TNIV are downright abominations.
The organ must dominate the "worship" time, complete with fake brass pipes on the wall behind the pulpit.
We must be out by 12 sharp, because the restaurants fill up quick. Hopefully, God will not revive us, because that would mess up our routine.
Oh God, deliver me from the SBC.
Billy
I particularly must chuckle (sadly) at the small group leader part who allow the pooling of Biblical ignorance by saying "what does this verse mean to you"?
ReplyDeleteEric, I was going to comment on the "what does this verse mean to you?", but you beat me to the punch. Funny, but true!
ReplyDeleteSo is this to say that disciples can only be made "under a trained pastor?" (as a side question where does this trained pastor acquire his/her training?) This would mean that the growth of making disciples is limited by who the "trained pastor" can invest his/her time in. Shouldn't the body of Christ be reproducing itself?
ReplyDeleteAlso wouldn't it be more accurate to have a tenacious devotion to the entire word of God, not just the teachings of the Apostles? Do you only use the New Testament in your teaching of disciples?
Where does the trained pastor acquire his or her training you ask? Not the back of Charisma magazine - I can tell you that. There are many wonderful accredited theological institutions in this country that are available for the training of pastors and teachers of the Word.
ReplyDeleteYou then ask:
"This would mean that the growth of making disciples is limited by who the "trained pastor" can invest his/her time in. Shouldn't the body of Christ be reproducing itself?"
The Bible tells us that the pastors job is "equipping and training the saints" - yes, the pastor should OVERSEE the discipling process - doesn't mean he is doing it all – but a pastor doing his biblical job should oversee the process. And of course preaching the Word is an important part of a pastors job and is a wonderful way to disciple Christians. Yes, the body should be reproducing itself, under the care of called and trained pastor.
Perhaps it would help to realize that when it comes to Biblical teaching and preaching - there are certain rules of interpretation that must be followed (hermeneutics) - perhaps one of the most important is that of context. It's quite common for small groups to go around a circle and say, "what does this verse mean to you", which is a little scary. The better question is – ‘what is God saying to us in this verse’.
Yes, I use the whole Bible - the conduct and practices of the New Testament church is found in the - New Testament, however.
I might suggest not only a tenacious devotion to the Word, but a tenacious devotion to your pastor as well.
That is a good word Eric.
ReplyDeleteYes understanding hermeneutics is important to accurate exegesis of Scripture. Finding the "then, always, and now" (exegetical, theological, and practical) meanings are needed for an accurate teaching of the central proposition of the text.
It is our duty as pastors to train our leaders and parishioners, whether from the platform or through direct education opportunities, basic hermeneutics for leading others in studying God's word as well as their personal study of Scripture. However, the gap between people's desire to lead a small group and their ability to adequately lead is not bridged in many churches. This is perhaps indicative of our lack of training believers to become mature followers of Christ.
It is difficult for any church to grasp that we, as a local church, are not where God wants us to be; there is a disconnect between perception and reality-our current mechanisms of maturing Christians are lacking and we don't even see it. Change will only occur when the pain of staying where we are is greater than the pain of change.
Very good point - there is a gap or "missing link" for lack of better terms in qualified small group leaders in churches. I have always firmly believed that the discipleship burden falls directly on the pastor (gulp), again, as it's his/her responsibility to raise up and train others who are equipped to disciple others.
ReplyDeleteI really like this statement you made: "Change will only occur when the pain of staying where we are is greater than the pain of change."
Very, very true. That thought could be applied to a lot of different areas on the body of Christ and the local church.
I have always firmly believed that the discipleship burden falls directly on the pastor (gulp), again, as it's his/her responsibility to raise up and train others who are equipped to disciple others.
ReplyDeleteOr until the "disciples" get so full of themselves and spiritual pride they leave. Huh, huh, huh :) I couldn't resist - sorry.
ahhhh....modern 'church-ianity'
ReplyDeleteI think that everyone should check out,"Choose the Life" by Bill Hull. He says in there that everyone who is a disciple must, in order to follow 1st century pattern of being a disciple, must make disciples themselves or they truly aren't one. Check out the book and then tell me what you think.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone is questioning that disciples should be making disciples - the Biblical mandate for pastors is "Equipping and training" the saints - thus the discipleship ministry of every church is ultimately the pastors responsibility.
ReplyDeleteSitting around a circle in a small group asking "what does this verse mean to you" does nothing to disciple people.
btw, you mention Bill Hull - In his book he acknowledges the spiritual disciplines he promotes are rooted in liberalism, neo-orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism (pp. 44,62,68). These are not Biblical but rather firmly rooted in Eastern mysticism....no thanks.
ReplyDeleteHaven't been here in a while. I have this question though in reference to Bill Hull. What disciplines are we calling non-biblical, rooted in liberalism, neo-orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, and Eastern mysticism? I didn't know reading your bible, meditating on the scriptures you read, memorizing said scripture you have just been reading and meditating on, practicing times of solitude to hear clearly and without distraction the voice of God, submission, journaling, worship, evangelism, service, stewardship, fasting, silence, and frugality were not present in the Bible. Seriously, how can those things be considered not Biblical? Someone's interpretation of certain of those disciplines, probably the meditation one or as some circles call it contemplative prayer or whatever, could be construed as having some Eastern mystic flavor. I have found the word meditate scriptural though when, wasn't it David asked that the words of his mouth and the meditation of his heart be acceptable in God's sight. I'm correct in remembering that right? Someone please help me understand how practicing those disciplines mentioned above make a person a mystic.
ReplyDeleteHey Will - I've missed talking to you ;^)
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong at all with meditating on God's Word - I think what some of these guys are proposing is a little bit more than that however.
Here's an ARTICLE referencing Bill Hull - and many click-able links there as well on the topic of eastern mysticism...
Please don't be a stranger here! How's the family, btw?
Family is doing great. School is out, summer is busy.
ReplyDeleteI have a question though. Have you read the book, "Choose the Life", for yourself or is it just the references in the link you gave that cause you not to read it? I have read it and am reading it through again because, IMO the lack of discipleship in the church, especially in our fellowship, can be traced to not choosing the life that the disciples chose when they chose to follow Jesus. We have made discipleship far too simple IMO, choosing to focus on just learning about Jesus, His Words, and His ministry. There are 2 other facets of discipleship that lack severely in what we do. If you study out the process of discipleship of Jesus time the 2 components missing in what we call discipleship are submission to a teacher/rabbi, or in today's application another believer who is discipling us. That would even apply to us as Pastors as well. Who is discipling us? (Not just referencing us btw, E.) The second component missing is us doing what Jesus said by going out and making disciples. That plus the others that we attempt, referenced above, make up the discipleship process to me. Yes people like McLaren and others are on board with what Hull is writing, but so am I in the case of this book. There are some solid teaching points here that we would do well to take a long hard look at.
Oh, no arguments there - the church in the past 100 years has dropped the ball tremendously in the area of discipleship. We have changed the Great Commission to "go and make converts" and we've been reaping the result of that.
ReplyDeleteDiscipling is even more difficult because of the lack of submission that you state, and the lack of commitment as well.
My only issue with Hall currently is that he acknowledges that the disciplines he is promoting are rooted in the above stated things. I'll have to read the book eventually, but I have 3 or 4 on my plate right now however.
I'm sure there's lots of good stuff, I even liked some parts of Velvet Elvis for that matter. I practice 'eating the meat and spitting out the bones' ;^)