Let's not paint them with too broad a brush. I pointed this link out to an emergent friend of mine, and he was horrified by it. He described it like accusing the entire Assemblies of God to be Benny Hinn disciples.
Pagitt is obviously wrong, and anyone who agrees with his "Christianity" is wrong, but the entire movement isn't the same as Pagitt and Solomon's Porch.
I believe that many who claim to be Christian will find themselves in a precarious position on the day of Judgement. Even the demons fear and tremble in the presence of Almighty God. They made a choice as we all make. To follow or not to follow Christ. We all make the choice to tell it like it is in the Word of God, or to candy coat it to make it sound inticing and draw huge crowds.
The Truth is Life. The Truth is found to be offensive to some. In the Bible it says "... and the TRUTH will set you free" (paraphrase).
I believe that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God. For Mr. Pagitt to belittle the Word in his off-air comments concerns me.
The emergent church has to fight the same demons that all denominations have to fight. You get one individual claiming to be one of "yours" and he/she has a few misguided thoughts and words that are made in view of a crowd, and then your not so famous leaders have to spend time and effort at doing damage control.
I'm not sure that Benny Hinn is still an Assemblies of God pastor. Eric do you have any info on that?
Benny was a A/G minister for a little less than a year approx. 10 or so years ago. He wanted to come into fellowship for accountability but decided to leave after a short time for reasons unknown to me.
Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill church in Seattle spoke recently at the Convergent conference at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and gave a pretty good outline of the different streams in the emerging/emergent church movement.
Sorry, maybe I was unclear. Pagitt obviously has some MAJOR differences from Christianity, but I'm not sure he accurately represents the larger "emergent" movement. Your post suggested that the entire emergent movement believes what Pagitt spouts.
That's what I meant by painting, not the report itself.
Just as it is my responsibility to make sure everything that my pastor preaches and the leaders of our fellowship espouse lines up with scripture, so it is the responsibility of everyone who claims to be "emergent" has a responsibility to make sure the "leaders" with in that group also lines up with scripture. If an emergent person is shocked at Doug Pagitt's comments, and say he is not a good example of the movement, then I would hope that the other "leaders" in the movement would be more vocal in their disapproval of his comments to the point of disassociation with him. Instead I read that he will be speaking soon at Mars Hill. I think it would not be a far reach to suggest that Rob Bell et all must agree with Pagitt's comments???
Joy, The thing is that Emergent isn't a denomination or a fellowship. It is pretty much just a non-profit Christian networking organization. The don't credential anyone, and don't really have a statement of belief.
Mars Hill, Rob Bell's church, is in no way associated with Emergent. Pagitt did speak at Mars Hill a few weeks ago (and it was a very good sermon, by the way), but he was asked to fill in at the last minute because Bell was sick.
I guess, all in all, I think we need to show grace to fellow believers. I know I wouldn't want to be judged based on some of people who are on the fringe in the A/G.
Joy - I'm not sure how Rob Bell runs his church - but I feel that everyone I ask to fill my pulpit I am, in fact, endorsing. If Bell doesn't fully endorse him - then why in the world would he have him speak at his church? That would be my question.
Honestly, after reading Velvet Elvis, I think Bell has more issues than a magazine rack.
I do understand that that the Emergent movement is not a denomination and that it crosses all denominations, fellowships (I am part of a ‘felllowship’), and independent groups. If Rob Bell is not “emergent”, his name sure comes up a lot in emergent discussions. As the pastor at Mars Hill, he has a Biblical responsibility to that local body of believers to make sure that what is taught from his pulpit (and anywhere in his church) is based on God’s word. Hebrews teaches that He will have to give an account to God for those entrusted to his care/teaching. I don’t think this applies only to pastors but to any person in a position of leadership. I am the daughter of a minister. My dad was jealous of his pulpit, meaning that he felt a very huge responsibility to his people to make sure anyone who stood in the pulpit preached the Word. I was taught early on that as his daughter, I too had a responsibility to be the best example I could be. Yes, we were held higher standard. We, as kids, were a reflection of our Dad. What we said & did could potentially reflect his ministry. Was that fair, maybe, maybe not. But as I have grown in age & in the Lord, I have realized that even more then being a reflection of my earthly father, I am a reflection of my heavenly Father.
I have been involved in a unique ministry for quite a few years now (www.lothac.com). We are very careful as to who leads our chapel services or speaks at any of our functions, because we take this responsibility very seriously. While we are non-denominational (9 different groups represented), we do not agree in all areas of scripture but we do agree on the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus and that He is the only way to salvation. A number of years ago, because of this ministry, I was told by a pastor that I was “emerging” ie taking my faith outside of the box of the local church. While that is true, as I have read and studied the emergent movement, I see much more heresy then orthodoxy. One cannot be a brother/sister in the Lord if he does not recognize that there is but one Lord.
Joy, I've not heard or read anyone associated with the ECM actually say anything denying that Jesus is Lord. I've read accusations to that effect, but they are unsubstantiated, in my opinion.
Also, Bell is not the Lead Pastor at Mars Hill. His official position is "teaching pastor". I believe Don Golden is the pastor who does more of the administrative stuff there, and according to the Podcast, was the one that invited Pagitt to speak. He actually invited the Friday before because Bell was sick. I encourage you to actually listen to the Podcast of the sermon before rushing to judgment. I thought it was spot on.
I guess my question would be how much agreement does there need to be to have a guest speaker? Some of Pagitt's view seem out of the mainstream, but he still affirms the core doctrines of faith. Making fun of John MacArthur might be rude, but it's not heresy.
I am not part of the ECM, I am an A/G campus minister, and I have read many of the books that we are talking about. I can see why people from Calvinistic backgrounds have issues with them, but I am honestly surprised to see the reaction from some A/G folks. I guess it has been split. It has mainly been people 45 and older who have really come out against it. People my age seem to resonate a lot more with what they're saying.
While I am some years from turning 45, I must say the problems I see with it aren't the good points and observations about the church at large that they are making - I can definitely agree with some of that - The problem is the core doctrines of Christianity are being attacked by some of these authors.
I would hope the questioning of the Virgin Birth by Bell, the deconstruction of Hell by McLaren, the loose living by Miller - don't resonate with you.
Let me blow your stereotype of "people like me":
*I'm not over 45 (41 to be exact) *I'm not a Calvinist *I don't wear a suit and tie on Sunday *We have a coffee bar at church and people are allowed to bring coffee into the sanctuary *I love creativity *We are massively involved in monthly (sometimes more often) community outreach (see Servant Evangelism, feeding the homeless, etc.) *I make fun of TBN ;^) *I would compare what God has miraculously done at this church plant with any I've ever seen.
When I hear you and other A/G guys use the word "resonate" - I immediately think about the above issues, i.e., they are resonating with the decontruction of Hell, the deconstruction of the Virgin Birth, etc.
The reason why - I can't use the term "resonate" with something unless I agree 99%.
I would think in our positions Phil, if you are going to agree with them on some issues, you should be quick to point out what you don't agree with from them as well. I had a long discussion with some of our college kids about this the other day. No one had pointed out the false stuff in some of these books for them. So we talked about what was good, and what was bad. It was really an awesome time.
People need their shepherds to shepherd - to teach, lead and be discerning with what comes down the pike.
I simply feel that we must handle the Word of Life a little more carefully than is being done by some.
Let's not paint them with too broad a brush. I pointed this link out to an emergent friend of mine, and he was horrified by it. He described it like accusing the entire Assemblies of God to be Benny Hinn disciples.
ReplyDeletePagitt is obviously wrong, and anyone who agrees with his "Christianity" is wrong, but the entire movement isn't the same as Pagitt and Solomon's Porch.
Not sure there is any "painting" going on here J - only "reporting".
ReplyDeleteThe following is only my opinion...
ReplyDeleteI believe that many who claim to be Christian will find themselves in a precarious position on the day of Judgement. Even the demons fear and tremble in the presence of Almighty God. They made a choice as we all make. To follow or not to follow Christ. We all make the choice to tell it like it is in the Word of God, or to candy coat it to make it sound inticing and draw huge crowds.
The Truth is Life. The Truth is found to be offensive to some. In the Bible it says "... and the TRUTH will set you free" (paraphrase).
I believe that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God. For Mr. Pagitt to belittle the Word in his off-air comments concerns me.
The emergent church has to fight the same demons that all denominations have to fight. You get one individual claiming to be one of "yours" and he/she has a few misguided thoughts and words that are made in view of a crowd, and then your not so famous leaders have to spend time and effort at doing damage control.
I'm not sure that Benny Hinn is still an Assemblies of God pastor. Eric do you have any info on that?
Benny was a A/G minister for a little less than a year approx. 10 or so years ago. He wanted to come into fellowship for accountability but decided to leave after a short time for reasons unknown to me.
ReplyDeleteMark Driscoll of Mars Hill church in Seattle spoke recently at the Convergent conference at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and gave a pretty good outline of the different streams in the emerging/emergent church movement.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sebts.edu/chmessages/resource_2207/Convergent_Mark_Driscoll.mp3
Sorry, maybe I was unclear. Pagitt obviously has some MAJOR differences from Christianity, but I'm not sure he accurately represents the larger "emergent" movement. Your post suggested that the entire emergent movement believes what Pagitt spouts.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I meant by painting, not the report itself.
Just as it is my responsibility to make sure everything that my pastor preaches and the leaders of our fellowship espouse lines up with scripture, so it is the responsibility of everyone who claims to be "emergent" has a responsibility to make sure the "leaders" with in that group also lines up with scripture. If an emergent person is shocked at Doug Pagitt's comments, and say he is not a good example of the movement, then I would hope that the other "leaders" in the movement would be more vocal in their disapproval of his comments to the point of disassociation with him. Instead I read that he will be speaking soon at Mars Hill. I think it would not be a far reach to suggest that Rob Bell et all must agree with Pagitt's comments???
ReplyDeleteJoy,
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that Emergent isn't a denomination or a fellowship. It is pretty much just a non-profit Christian networking organization. The don't credential anyone, and don't really have a statement of belief.
Mars Hill, Rob Bell's church, is in no way associated with Emergent. Pagitt did speak at Mars Hill a few weeks ago (and it was a very good sermon, by the way), but he was asked to fill in at the last minute because Bell was sick.
I guess, all in all, I think we need to show grace to fellow believers. I know I wouldn't want to be judged based on some of people who are on the fringe in the A/G.
Phil said:
ReplyDelete"I know I wouldn't want to be judged based on some of people who are on the fringe in the A/G."
LOL...now that I can AMEN! ;^)
Joy - I'm not sure how Rob Bell runs his church - but I feel that everyone I ask to fill my pulpit I am, in fact, endorsing. If Bell doesn't fully endorse him - then why in the world would he have him speak at his church? That would be my question.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, after reading Velvet Elvis, I think Bell has more issues than a magazine rack.
Pastor E said:
ReplyDelete"Honestly, after reading Velvet Elvis, I think Bell has more issues than a magazine rack."
You always had a way with analogies.
Phil,
ReplyDeleteI do understand that that the Emergent movement is not a denomination and that it crosses all denominations, fellowships (I am part of a ‘felllowship’), and independent groups. If Rob Bell is not “emergent”, his name sure comes up a lot in emergent discussions. As the pastor at Mars Hill, he has a Biblical responsibility to that local body of believers to make sure that what is taught from his pulpit (and anywhere in his church) is based on God’s word. Hebrews teaches that He will have to give an account to God for those entrusted to his care/teaching. I don’t think this applies only to pastors but to any person in a position of leadership. I am the daughter of a minister. My dad was jealous of his pulpit, meaning that he felt a very huge responsibility to his people to make sure anyone who stood in the pulpit preached the Word. I was taught early on that as his daughter, I too had a responsibility to be the best example I could be. Yes, we were held higher standard. We, as kids, were a reflection of our Dad. What we said & did could potentially reflect his ministry. Was that fair, maybe, maybe not. But as I have grown in age & in the Lord, I have realized that even more then being a reflection of my earthly father, I am a reflection of my heavenly Father.
I have been involved in a unique ministry for quite a few years now (www.lothac.com). We are very careful as to who leads our chapel services or speaks at any of our functions, because we take this responsibility very seriously. While we are non-denominational (9 different groups represented), we do not agree in all areas of scripture but we do agree on the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus and that He is the only way to salvation. A number of years ago, because of this ministry, I was told by a pastor that I was “emerging” ie taking my faith outside of the box of the local church. While that is true, as I have read and studied the emergent movement, I see much more heresy then orthodoxy. One cannot be a brother/sister in the Lord if he does not recognize that there is but one Lord.
Joy,
ReplyDeleteI've not heard or read anyone associated with the ECM actually say anything denying that Jesus is Lord. I've read accusations to that effect, but they are unsubstantiated, in my opinion.
Also, Bell is not the Lead Pastor at Mars Hill. His official position is "teaching pastor". I believe Don Golden is the pastor who does more of the administrative stuff there, and according to the Podcast, was the one that invited Pagitt to speak. He actually invited the Friday before because Bell was sick. I encourage you to actually listen to the Podcast of the sermon before rushing to judgment. I thought it was spot on.
I guess my question would be how much agreement does there need to be to have a guest speaker? Some of Pagitt's view seem out of the mainstream, but he still affirms the core doctrines of faith. Making fun of John MacArthur might be rude, but it's not heresy.
I am not part of the ECM, I am an A/G campus minister, and I have read many of the books that we are talking about. I can see why people from Calvinistic backgrounds have issues with them, but I am honestly surprised to see the reaction from some A/G folks. I guess it has been split. It has mainly been people 45 and older who have really come out against it. People my age seem to resonate a lot more with what they're saying.
Phil -
ReplyDeleteWhile I am some years from turning 45, I must say the problems I see with it aren't the good points and observations about the church at large that they are making - I can definitely agree with some of that - The problem is the core doctrines of Christianity are being attacked by some of these authors.
I would hope the questioning of the Virgin Birth by Bell, the deconstruction of Hell by McLaren,
the loose living by Miller - don't resonate with you.
Let me blow your stereotype of "people like me":
*I'm not over 45 (41 to be exact)
*I'm not a Calvinist
*I don't wear a suit and tie on Sunday
*We have a coffee bar at church and people are allowed to bring coffee into the sanctuary
*I love creativity
*We are massively involved in monthly (sometimes more often) community outreach (see Servant Evangelism, feeding the homeless, etc.)
*I make fun of TBN ;^)
*I would compare what God has miraculously done at this church plant with any I've ever seen.
When I hear you and other A/G guys use the word "resonate" - I immediately think about the above issues, i.e., they are resonating with the decontruction of Hell, the deconstruction of the Virgin Birth, etc.
The reason why - I can't use the term "resonate" with something unless I agree 99%.
I would think in our positions Phil, if you are going to agree with them on some issues, you should be quick to point out what you don't agree with from them as well. I had a long discussion with some of our college kids about this the other day. No one had pointed out the false stuff in some of these books for them. So we talked about what was good, and what was bad. It was really an awesome time.
People need their shepherds to shepherd - to teach, lead and be discerning with what comes down the pike.
I simply feel that we must handle the Word of Life a little more carefully than is being done by some.
Phil -
ReplyDeletelong shot here, but is THIS your Chi Alpha group by chance?